Radio Interview
Interviewed by Brian Mason
WLAC Nashville, TN October 23, 1988
Brian Mason:Rich Mullins... good morning.
Rich Mullins: Good morning.
Brian Mason: You... um, are not quite bright-eyed as I've seen you at some times.
Rich Mullins: No, not quite.
Brian Mason: You have been what is referred to as a 'party animal' for the past couple of days, is that right?...
Rich Mullins: Just a couple days. Uh-huh.
Brian Mason: Well, I said welcome home to him and he laughed because this is no longer home for you. You don't live in Nashville anymore is what I'm trying to say...
Rich Mullins: Right, Correct-O. Correct. This coffee is very good. I highly recommend chocolate raspberry coffee.
Brian Mason: That's what we're drinking this morning.
Rich Mullins: Yeah.
Brian Mason: We need to take care of another tradition. We didn't talk about this yet but you have a friend who drives the paper route?
Rich Mullins: That's right. Ken.
Brian Mason: Ken, are you listening?
Rich Mullins: Ken, are you listening? This is me. I'm back.
Brian Mason: Give a Sunday paper this way buddy.
Rich Mullins: I'm the cause of all the trouble in Bellsburg.
Brian Mason: (Laughter) Nah, you're not...
Rich Mullins: You must lock your windows. They're having a party there.
Brian Mason: Talk about "Awesome God" before we go any farther - how you wrote it..
Rich Mullins: Okay, this is a really disappointing story I gotta tell you right up front.
Brian Mason: You got some great stories - I mean "Come all Ye faithful's" a great story and...
Rich Mullins: Yeah... getting kicked out of the piano room at school...
Brian Mason: ...getting banned from the music building...
Rich Mullins: ...getting banned from the Music Building. Yeah that was that was one of my better ones. I was really proud of that. But "Awesome God" was just - I was trying to stay awake and we were driving across Kansas to Colorado to a Christ in youth conference. And the guy that was riding with me was sound asleep and I was pulling a trailer that was bigger than my truck. My truck only had four cylinders and I was just going, wow it's so incredible how strong gravity is and then you know... I have the pedal to the metal and it was going every bit of at least 37 miles an hour downhill. And there's very little downhill in Kansas. It's all - from the Missouri border to the Colorado border, it's all uphill and I just went, 'man this is unbelievable.' So then I started, you know of course, being religiously minded as I am, I started thinking man, if gravity is this strong think how strong God must be.
Brian Mason: ...and that's where "Awesome God" came from?
Rich Mullins: ... and that's pretty much where it came from, yes - I just started acting like I was a Baptist preacher. I just started kind of yelling things out the window at the cars going by and then I just strung them together and (Coughing) excuse me... we've been sitting out by a campfire all night so I feel like I'm gonna have smoker's cough today.
Brian Mason: Oh no. I think "Screen Door" is one of my favorite stories... I said, 'how did you write screen door?' and you said, 'well it's acapella because I wrote it in my truck and I don't have any keyboards in my truck.' (Laughter)
Rich Mullins: Well I do most of my writing in my truck, it's my... it's not just a truck, it's my life.
Brian Mason: That's where you live.
Rich Mullins: It's my habitat.
Brian Mason: Ok... oh boy, so you made it to Colorado, right?
Rich Mullins: Yes, I did. We did and we sang that song as soon as I got there.
Brian Mason: Did you really?
Rich Mullins: Yeah. The whole conference did. It was great.
Brian Mason: Tell me about the hammer dulcimer. That's um ...
Rich Mullins: Yes, one of my favorite things to play because it's actually an ancestor to the piano and I've given up being a piano player, you know.
Brian Mason: Oh, have you really?
Rich Mullins: Yeah, pretty much. Snd so I decided to, you know, go backwards so I thought in my great digression I would go back to the what the piano started out
being which was hammer dulcimers and they just eventually evolved into something much more complicated.
Brian Mason: really? Do you play that in concert?
Rich Mullins: Mmm-hmm.
Brian Mason: It's something that's that portable?
Rich Mullins: Yeah, it's really one of those little trapezoid shape things that's maybe a little bit bigger than your average autoharp and then you take these little wooden mallets and you hit it. That's my favorite part of it. Yes, you just hit that thing all over the place and it makes noise.
Brian Mason: it's a beautiful sound.
Rich Mullins: Yeah, I think it's... The first time I heard it in fact - when I went to college I had decided to be at peace at myself ever in my life... I was going to have to learn to appreciate my own heritage and my Dad is a total hillbilly. I mean, he was born in Appalachia, Virginia. So I thought Ok, as part of my education, I started listening to appalachian music. Got familiar with lap dulcumers - the kind that you strum. This friend of mine called me up and said 'Hey they're having a dulcimer festival.' Which I thought was going to be really boring because they're just a three or four stringed little instrument. And I've heard a lot of people play them very badly. But, nevertheless, we were going to canoe to it. So I thought that would be a lot of fun. So, we canoed into Coshocton, Ohio we canoed down the Walhonding - down the Mohican. Got to Coshocton, Ohio right about sunset. It was like being on the set of the Daniel Boone TV series or something. You know, Coshocton is this old restored town, and we come up in this canoe with my lap dulcimer floating in the middle of the canoe and I heard this incredible music. And I was going 'Man, what are they playing?' So, we got out and ran up the bank. And went over to the middle of the festival and there was about six hammer dulcimers in a circle. And they were all playing simultaneously. It was like being in the middle of a music box.
Brian Mason: Wow, that's beautiful. So you fell in love with the instrument and...
Rich Mullins: Yes, I did. I started saving my money right then and never did get enough in fact. I finally had enough to buy one and my car broke down and I had to spend money on that. But I was in East Tennessee at the time and I was doing an interim ministry in East Tennessee and the people from the church that I was... interiming... whatever... they bought me one.
Brian Mason: That's great...
Rich Mullins: Yeah, Yeah, wasn't that nice?
Brian Mason: Yeah, very nice.
Rich Mullins: Yeah, so it pays to have your car broke down.
Brian Mason: In East Tennessee anyway, right?
[Break]
Brian Mason: talk about the song "If I Stand" - let's move on to another song... while you sip your coffee...
Rich Mullins: "If I Stand I wrote with Steve Cudworth and we traveled together last year, me and Kyle Stephens and Barry Clark and we were just sitting out at the house and thinking what a cool house I had and how nice everything was and realizing how you can get really caught up in the good things. That sometimes it's good to be miserable here because it makes you, uh... it's kinda like when that '88 reasons' came out and everyone was looking for Jesus at Rosh Hashanah and I thought it was wonderful. I thought - I mean, I wasn't sure if I ever believed it, but I thought it was really wonderful that people were really looking for Him. And then I was talking to this guy from a kind of under-trodden group of people and he said that he thought that white Christians were so funny because from his culture they always look for Jesus. Because the only joy they have, is the joy that they hope for. That they'll have one when history is all brought to an end, and oppression is no longer a reality. It's not... you know, we don't have to worry about that because... we're, I guess, the oppressors, I don't know... But we were just thinking about how wonderful it was to be out there and how that there is more going on than what we can see or what we can feel and we wrote the song.
[Break]
Brian Mason: All right our exclusive forecast for the Nashville area we're gonna have a variable cloud... do what?
Rich Mullins: I'll read it. I'm practicing because I think I'm gonna have a very short-lived music career, I was thinking about going into meteorology. Okay, this is the exclusive forecast for the Nashville area of variable cloudiness and windy today, a few showers and a thunderstorm, with any luck. High today near 70, partly cloudy tonight, low 42. Tomorrow a mix of clouds and sunshine, maybe a shower - you need one. High in the 58.
Brian Mason: And now in Nashville...
Rich Mullins: ...and, it's... what?
Brian Mason: Partly cloudy.
Rich Mullins: It's partly cloudy right now, if you can't figure that out.
Brian Mason: No, and the temperature...
Rich Mullins: The temperature is six hundred...449...
Brian Mason: No, at six o'clock...
Rich Mullins: At six o'clock.
Brian Mason: Yeah, and seven o'clock...
Rich Mullins: ...and seven o'clock... it's not getting a whole lot warmer out there, in other words...
Brian Mason: Yeah, I would say keep on recording them records.
Rich Mullins: It will get brighter as the day goes by.
Brian Mason: (Laughter) I'll trust you on that... oh boy, that was a 20 minute weather forecast. Not bad at all. I kind of like that. Rich Mullins is our guest we're
gonna be giving away some cassettes. Did you know that?
Rich Mullins: No, I didn't.
Brian Mason: winds of heaven, stuff of Earth is his latest album. Is this your dog?
Rich Mullins: That is my dog - she just got hit yesterday. I'm so depressed.
Brian Mason: Noooo.... is she with you here?
Rich Mullins: No, she's not with us.
Brian Mason: She's home...
Rich Mullins: She's still home, yes... not to her eternal home. She just got nicked, but I think she just did it to get attention. I
told her I was gonna shoot her next time she got hit. She does it... it's kind of her way of pouting.
Brian Mason: Does she chase cars?
Rich Mullins: She races with cars. Yeah, she's a very fast dog, but she wasn't fast enough.
Brian Mason: I understand that the session...now, folks - you that have seen the album cover. This is a great picture. This is in my top ten of favorite album covers too.
Rich Mullins: Yeah, mine too.
Brian Mason: I like this. It just looks very casual. Very together. You look like you're just enjoying... I didn't know it was your dog, but this... I understand the dog just kind of came in and sat down and that was it.
Rich Mullins: Oh, she she knew what was going on. Curry's the queen of Bellsberg.
[Break]
Brian Mason: This latest song, "The other side of the world"...
Rich Mullins: "The other side of the world."
Brian Mason: "The other side of the world" opens up with a chant if you will...
Rich Mullins: It's a little children song...
Brian Mason: A little children song. And the translation?
Rich Mullins: Is something on the order of 'pray to God pray to God it will be cool with you, if you pray to God.'
Brian Mason: Really?
Rich Mullins: 'Sabai' means cool. I mean it means close to cool. It's kind of interesting, we were at trying to ask the kids what they do for fun, and they don't have a word in their vocabulary for fun. They don't understand this.
Brian Mason: This was Korean?
Rich Mullins: No, no no - this was Thailand. This was the Lisu people...
Brian Mason: He's talking to his friend Roger...who you met...
Rich Mullins: Yeah - Who I met in Thailand he's and he's here for the birthday party.
Brian Mason: Okay, anyway.., party was last night right?
Rich Mullins: No, it was Friday Saturday and today...
Brian Mason: (Laughter) Oh, it's still going on.....
Rich Mullins: I know no one out there is listening, but but in case you're at home...
Brian Mason: That's not true...
Rich Mullins: No, they're all crashed by now...
Brian Mason: Oh - oh, you mean the people went to the party. I thought you meant I didn't have any listeners this morning...
Rich Mullins: Oh no-no-no-no! I know you have thousands of listeners everywhere. I tune in just to hear you.
Brian Mason: Well, I appreciate that.
Rich Mullins: I turn it off when the music comes on. I have this little buzzer that goes off and goes - the music has ended and here he is... and I turn it back on. No, but anyway, they don't have a word for fun which is why we're going what do you do for fun and the translator went - '(uninteligible).. wow we don't have a word for fun.' and then they have this word 'Subai,' which means... I mean the closest thing we come to it in our language is 'cool,' but it's not really 'cool.' It's like something really even cooler than cool. It's like someone in California will come up with a word someday that will approach this more...
Brian Mason: So, this language is what?
Rich Mullins: This is a mixture of lisu and Thai. Actually Dr. Garland Berry - just ran into him not too long ago and he was a missionary over there and
he said that the first part is Lisu, but 'Subai 'is definitely Thai.
Brian Mason: Okay. And did you write the words, or a translator wrote...
Rich Mullins: No, this was a song a little kid sang for us when we came in the village.
Brian Mason: Oh, so you didn't write this first part?
Rich Mullins: No, I do that a lot. I steal from Bach, from the Lisu...
Brian Mason: (Laughter) Yes you do. But you always say thank you don't you?
Rich Mullins: I do, yeah....
Brian Mason: That's great. Alright, anything else you should tell us about the song?
Rich Mullins: Uh, no. I like it. I like it very much. And there's a video out on it that we made in Guatemala with little Guatemalan kids. Guatemullins. Wow, if my first name was 'Guat,a' then I would sound like a country. It's Guata Mullins. (Laughter) So, lucky my name is Richard. I'd hate to be mistaken for a country. If I keep eating like I've been eating, they're gonna mistake me for a continent. At my house, it's just incredible tables full of food. It's all fattening food. It's all cheesecakes and other stuff. Wow, all my friends cook - I love them.
Brian Mason: Oh, that's worth coming back to Nashville for. Alright, "The other side of the world." Rich Mullins.
Rich Mullins: "The other side of the world."
["The other side of the world"]
Brian Mason: Roger - tell a story...
Rich Mullins: Yeah, this is Roger (?), a friend of mine from Thailand.
Roger: Yeah, I was just telling how Rich wrote that song. One of the missionary interns that was there in Thailand was getting ready to leave and we all got together for a big service. There was - what, rich? Seven different languages? Seven different languages represented here in the service and Rich wrote the song - Oh I guess, about an hour and a half before the service. And he and Steve Cudworth performed it. It was just one of the highlights of the service.
Brian Mason: Wow.
Rich Mullins: It was a long service and it made me wish that we were Pentecostal because they had to translate everything seven times. It was really kind of a... I
kept thinking, wow if we all were like fabulously gifted this could be a lot shorter.
Brian Mason: (Laughter)
Rich Mullins: I was afraid they were gonna burn the rice, but they ant always anticipate long services there.
Brian Mason: Really?
Rich Mullins: Yeah, 'cuz they're not afraid of going over time.
Brian Mason: You think you'll go back? Spend much time there - is that what...?
Rich Mullins: I would like to go back and live there, yeah.
Brian Mason: Really?
Rich Mullins: Yeah. Only for ten years. I think only for about ten years.
Brian Mason: What attracts you?
Rich Mullins: It's not America.
Brian Mason: Which means?
Rich Mullins: Which means people are very quiet, they're very small. And the Christians I met there, it was really wonderful to hear the Scriptures being read by people who didn't have a white, anglo-saxon, Protestant slant on them. That's really refreshing to hear people read the scriptures who had not grown up in a Christian culture. So their slant was very different and a lot of times their insights were very... un... I don't know... un...
Brian Mason: Un-Americanized?
Rich Mullins: Yeah. Not that I think America's a negative place, I think... I mean, I like cars. And I like... fast food is okay if if you have to eat in a hurry. And I think this country has really done a lot of good for a lot of people. And I think in fact Thailand is maybe still somewhat free because of the influence of the United States.
Brian Mason: What's the message particularly to American Christians?
Rich Mullins: I think you have to meet God kind of head-on. And I think sometimes when you live in a Christian culture that it's hard to do that because we have all these preconceived ideas about what that is - it was really neat, one of the old men, one of the elders - I think it was a Chinese man, was doing a Bible study on the parable of the sheep and they don't have sheep in Thailand. So he was describing sheep to the people. I had never thought about sheep before, but he said now the the reason the shepherd takes care of the Sheep is because he's going to butcher them. And so they give their wool and then they give their lives. And so if we were to think of ourselves as sheep, we should think of ourselves as needing to give our wool and then to give our lives. And I thought, man I grew up in the Church and I never heard anyone see that in that, and in a way he was very accurate. He said the sheep gives his wool and they would take the wool and they would sell it. And this man did everything he could to find out about sheep because they were so interested, and we take them so for granted. They take their wool to the market and sell it and so the the wool from the lamb is for the others. And that is our witness to the world. Kindness to the world. The way that we we deal with people outside the church and - but then, the sheep are butchered for the shepherd or for the people from his household. And so we are to lay down our lives for one another and everything he said was just shocking. And I think I am so grateful that I grew up in the church. I'm thankful I went to Bible College. I'm thankful that I was taught as a little boy to respect the Scriptures and to read them. And I feel that that was a wonderful blessing in my life. But then, to hear the Scriptures being read by people who are not going into it with with a particularly denominational slant was really - or even cultural.. well it's a different cultural place. It's not that they don't have a slant, it's that they have a different one. Really wonderful.
Brian Mason: It's affected you very deeply then...
Rich Mullins: Very deeply. It's made me really want to go back for that reason. And also because I just think that there is an awful lot of energy being spent in America to entertain kids into the kingdom and I sometimes resent... well it's kind of like - it's a weird thing, you know, you do a concert and more kids and adults are more
interested in finding out if you know Amy Grant than if you know Jesus Christ. And I think you know it's so wild when people are impressed with other people I know, when everybody I know is eventually gonna die and decompose. And yet I know someone who will never see corruption. I know someone who has overcome every bad thing in the
world and when I tell them, they're unimpressed. I don't understand this.
[Break]
Brian Mason: winds of heaven, stuff of Earth - where did the title come from?
Rich Mullins: Well those are two different lines... well actually, from two different songs - a line from...
Brian Mason: From each?
Rich Mullins: Yes. how do you say that? That's really, you know... it's very hard at - what time is it?
Brian Mason: Almost a quarter to eight.
Rich Mullins: A quarter of eight. Yeah I'm having a little trouble. Actually I think everything is either the winds of heaven or it's just stuff and I like juxtaposition and it just sounded real kind of Indian real kind of a little mystical. I think sometimes we're a little afraid of mystical things and I think rightly so because I think you can run into trouble. But I think Christianity has a definitely has a... there's a mystical element in it. Nothing weird and 'new agey', just...
Brian Mason: No, no.
Rich Mullins: There's the communion of the saints. That's a very mystical thing...
Brian Mason: Right. Talk about the song "Home," let's play that song next
Rich Mullins: Well "Home," I just wrote last year right - no, actually it was in December that I wrote it. You know it was just a time when - you know how you go through those those little periods when everything falls out from under you? Everything is jerked out from under you and you just go, 'wow what is this?' And then all of a sudden you go nothing really matters anyway. I mean sooner or later everything is designed
to dissolve and what we need to do is enjoy it when it's there. And I mean it's so much easier said than... I mean I say that like, 'oh well just enjoy it while it's here, man.' But we need to be thankful. I mean I guess I wrote "Doubly Good To You" and I remember someone saying, you know, what you're saying is that God hasn't been doubly good to you if you don't have someone who you're in love with and I said God doesn't owe you anything. And if you have anything at all then then you're very, very lucky. Lucky is a bad word, but we'll use it. you know so that's what "Home" is about
["Home"]
Brian Mason: Tell me more about the parties that have been going on these past... this is a birthday party, can we say how old you are?
Rich Mullins: 33.
Brian Mason: 33.
Rich Mullins: Yeah this is where grace becomes really meaningful, because you realize you are gonna be older than 33 because Jesus didn't get to be older than 33.
Brian Mason: So, the grace years are about to abound..
Rich Mullins: They have just begun.
Brian Mason: So did you plan like three days of parties? Is that what...
Rich Mullins: It's not.. there's... nothing is really planned. There are some traditions. We normally take a good hike because where I live there's like all kinds of great hikes to take. There's normally a football game which we've gotten through. A lot of times we have motorcycle races and stuff like that, but no one rode motorcycles this year because it was so cold. And there's always like a lot of movie watching and a lot of card playing ... for people who can tolerate that kind of behavior... obviously...
Brian Mason: It's your birthday. Why not?
Rich Mullins: Hey that's right. That's right.
Brian Mason: Well we have a surprise for you this morning... here... it's now time..
[Large crowd singing "Happy Birthday"]
Brian Mason: A bevy of people are here bringing all kinds of stuff...
Rich Mullins: There are thousands of people.
Brian Mason: They don't sing very well....
Rich Mullins: Oh wow, thank you, thank you, thank you.
Brian Mason: This is wonderful.. well we just wanted to kind of continue what's been going on for the past couple days. A number of your friends...
Rich Mullins: Hey you said they don't sing very well - this is one of the guys from my band - he sings. I hope he sings. Say Hello Kyle...
Kyle: Hello Nashville.
Rich Mullins: This is Katie ...
Katie: Hi...
Brian Mason: Hi Katie.
Rich Mullins: These people from Grand Rapids... Grand Rapids, Michigan.
Brian Mason: Wow, there are a lot of people here... they're all wearing Rich Mullins sweatshirts.
Rich Mullins: These are the Cincinnati people, these are the South Bend Indiana people... Fort Worth, Dallas people are here. Oh, this is Connie, she lives in Bellsburg. This is a Cincinnati person. Wichita! This is my sister and her husband.
Brian Mason: All good. Welcome! So these people are just here for your party?
Rich Mullins: This is Elaine from Joplin and this guy here is the Anderson Indiana.
Brian Mason: There's a lot more...
Rich Mullins: Yeah there's a bunch people out of my house... these people came here just because I only have one bathroom.
Brian Mason: Everybody that's here from out of town came here just for this guy's birthday party? Wow... that's that's pretty incredible
Rich Mullins: It's very, very overwhelming...
Brian Mason: No wonder it's a three-day party.
Rich Mullins: Yeah, yeah - because if you drive that far you need to get something out of it/
Brian Mason: Oh that's that's pretty special. See this tremendous effect you have on people?
Rich Mullins: Yeah, it's really... thank you..
Brian Mason: Did anybody bring a cake this morning?
Rich Mullins: Oh wow, we've had nothing but cake and cake and cake and more cake...
Brian Mason: Alright.
